Eric
Roth is one of the most interesting screenwriters working in Hollywood
today. He won an Academy Award® for Forrest Gump and has written
two films directed by Michael Mann — The Insider, starring Russell
Crowe and Al Pacino, and Ali, starring Will Smith. He also co-wrote
the Academy Award®-nominated screenplay for Steven Spielberg’s
Munich and adapted The Horse Whisperer for director Robert Redford.
Now, after 12 long years, one of his most personal projects, The Good
Shepherd, has finally come to the screen…
This
has been long-term project, with some big names attached as director
over the years…
Well, when I finished Forrest Gump I had a little cache and they asked
me what I’d like to do, rather than telling me what to do. I had
been interested in the idea of doing something about the CIA. I’d
always been interested in how that kind of work can affect you emotionally,
in your life and family. So I checked with my agent to see who might
be interested in directing something like that, and we found out that
Francis Ford Coppola was interested. He was interested in adapting this
very well written book about the CIA. So I asked if I could go and see
him; we’d met a couple of times. I told him the idea I had and
he liked it very much.
So
what happened after you spoke to Coppola?
He and his producing partner took it to Columbia Pictures and Francis
told me to go and write it. I’d check in with Francis every once
in a while, and then when I finished he loved the script. But then Francis
had some tragic personal problems in his life, and in fact he never
directed a movie again for along, long time. We then had Wayne Wang
come on as director. He wanted to make the movie but then the management
at the studio switched and they changed their mind about him.
And
what time period was this?
Well it was 12 years ago that I started, so let’s say this was
two years after, so 10 years ago. Then Phil Kauffman was a director
that they liked, and we worked together for a while. Then the management
changed again, and he wasn’t the director for them so eventually
John Frankenheimer wanted to do it. Frankenheimer had made a movie with
Robert De Niro, Ronin. Bob and John were friendly and John asked Bob
to play a part in my screenplay, The Good Shepherd.
Was
it the same part De Niro ended up playing in the movie?
I’m not sure it was, I think it was another part. But in any case,
John wanted Bob in the movie, but when we were preparing to make the
movie, John passed away.
When
did De Niro step in to direct?
A short time later, Bob came to me and said he’d possibly be interested
in directing my script, because he himself had been developing a project
similar in the sense that it was about the CIA, although in a different
time period than I had written about. But he loved my script and asked
how we could work it out, so we talked about it, should we do his idea
or mine, and then one of us said that if Bob directs The Good Shepherd,
I’ll write his script, as a second part, for him, which would
pick up after the Bay of Pigs. The Good Shepherd goes from the birth
of the CIA up until that point. So that was eight years ago, and there
was this long gestation period. We’d work on the script when we
saw each other, and talk, and at the same time Bob was trying hard to
cart the costs around – these things aren’t cheap and it’s
a serious subject matter, but eventually, because of Bob’s persistence
it came off. I think some people had some problems with a film about
the CIA, but the basic material always stayed the same.
The
events of 9/11, and what followed, triggered more interest in the CIA.
Do you think this film could have got made pre-9/11?
Who knows, it’s hard to gauge that. I don’t want to say
that 9/11 was a good thing. The material stayed the same, in a sense,
but I think people’s awareness of the CIA grew, with 9/11 and
the Iraq War, and the agency’s involvement in that, with the WMD.
But I think the core of the script, and which I hope comes through in
the movie, is this family story, what it means to be an individual man
in the CIA, trying to hold a family together, while living all these
secret lives. So I think it was always a viable piece, but it was hard
and not all that obvious – it wasn’t always easy for people
to see why we should make this movie. But Bob was diligent.
Is
it true that Leonardo DiCaprio was going to play the lead?
Yeah Bob brought Leonardo on board, although scheduling eventually screwed
that up, so then Matt came in right away. They’re both wonderful
actors.
When
writing, were you motivated more by the human story than the specific
details of how the CIA was formed?
Not exactly. I’m thematically most interested in a man in power
in this organization and how that might affect him. But the gods are
in the details, whatever you write, and historically I was interested
in the fact that it started with those 50 or so people and now there
are 30,000 people, which is pretty amazing. We always assume the CIA
has been around forever, but it has only been here since 1947, which
is long time in one respect but a short time in another, and it has
so much power. And with so many people committed to this organization
it’s amazing to think that it grew out of this little germ.
You
must have met many CIA operatives, are any of them able to maintain
happy marriages?
Well I think they maintain happy personal relationships, for sure, but
I think that if you’re going into this, it’s like the Godfather
in a sense, that wives could not know what their husbands did. They
knew they were in the CIA but they didn’t know what they did there,
and I think that’s true of many military families. People now
don’t know where their sons are in Iraq, and if you’re whole
life is that way, for years and years, it must be strange. You may come
to terms with it, but there’s an estrangement, when you can’t
talk about what you do, and unload about a bad day in the office. If
you can’t talk about specifics, that seems hard to me.
How
did you manage to secure access to the CIA in the early days of the
project?
We were lucky. When I initially did it, it was through Francis. I spent
a lot of time talking to a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, and a
few other people. But then Bob came along and he was friendly with Milt
Bearden, who’s done this for 30 years, and he’s the best.
He was at a high level in the CIA and he kept us on course with what
was accurate, and he put us in our places a couple of times. I always
used him as a sounding board, about what people did but also about how
they might feel about certain things. I hope it’s as realistic
an espionage/spy movie that’s ever been made. I think it is. Milt
was very smart and went to Yale. Plus he introduced us to a whole bunch
of people over the years, and we had a big roundtable in Washington
with 16 agents, so we got good coverage that way. We also talked to
heads of other agents — the British and Israeli Secret Services.
They might not agree with some of the emotional qualities of some of
the things we portray but we think it’s accurate in terms of what
they would have done.
So
you didn’t have to compromise any of the history to carry the
human narrative?
I don’t think we ever did, and I’m not sure I would in a
sense. Usually if it seems as though I’m forced to choose between
drama and historical accuracy, I would look to do the historical accuracy
in a dramatic way, so I don’t think you have to choose. I think
I did that with Ali, The Insider and Munich, so I know that the truth
is always more important.
One
of the most memorable scenes in the movie is the interrogation. During
that we’re told that Russia is less of a threat than the CIA pretends.
Was there truth in that?
I don’t know if it was quite a truth, maybe more a metaphor. Russia
was definitely still a threat — they had nuclear weapons. This
had more to do with the fact that Russia was broke, although those words
are taken from literal sources, and it was well known that they were
in a poor economic state, so Russia was more like a wounded bear. And
a wounded bear is still dangerous, right? But there was this whole philosophical
thing about America being a big military industrial complex that needed
an enemy, and you can agree or disagree, either way, I’m not advocating
either side. It was originally said by Eisenhower. I’m not sure
it’s 100 per cent accurate but it’s absolutely true that
part of our government was controlled by the arms industry, in the way
that maybe the pharmaceutical or oil industries do now. They became
an accepted wing of the government and they became one of the influences
I was interested in. What the influences are that the CIA has to deal
with.
Syriana
dealt with similar kinds of influence on government. Did you enjoy that
take on the CIA and the Middle East?
I did enjoy it, but I don’t feel the same comparison. I’m
very close to the director, Stephen Gaghan, but it is very different.
This is more of a personal story, in a specific sense, about Matt Damon’s
character, and the pervasive nature of truth and secrecy and trust.
Stephen
Gaghan said that the most important thing in his writing was transition
— moving from one scene to the other — is that something
you felt with this movie, being a non-linear story?
In relation to this movie, I would say that probably is true with this
movie. The transitions were hard. But also I think it’s traumatic
trying to keep the storytelling going. I’m a great believer in
simplicity — not that the movie’s simple — more that
every movie always has three acts, maybe four, even if it’s a
Charlie Kaufman movie. There’s the beginning where you present
the problem, the second act where you complicate the problem and the
third act where you solve the problem or don’t. It’s all
traditional Shakespeare and it’s true of every story no matter
how post-modern you get.
Was
it hard to maintain the narrative with so much intrigue and complexity?
Yeah, I guess what’s tough for me is when I run into trouble with
the story wandering away from me. And this was very complicated in The
Good Shepherd, because so many stories weave together. So trying to
keep these together knowing way down the line I’d have to pay
off certain things, or not; that’s part of the technique. And,
while it might make the audience uncomfortable, there are some things
you’ll never know, because that’s what the CIA is like.
Are
you a trusting man, Eric, or are you like your protagonist with a suspicious
mind?
That’s a great question, very interesting. I think I’m somewhere
in-between. I’m not entirely sure I take people quite on face
value. I’m a little more defensive I guess. I’m trusting
in people I love. A great question though — I love that, there
are so many shades of grey in that. I think being part of the movie
business you have to be cautious. Maybe it’s more in business
than in life, but if someone calls me and I haven’t heard from
them in a long time, I’m waiting for them to reveal what they’re
really calling about.
Have
you changed working in Hollywood for so long?
I’m not sure. I might have thick skin – as a writer you
have to get used to rejection, same as being an actor. I love movies
so much that I’m a great believer in the whole thing, so I’m
a bit of a sap in that sense, I want to believe. It’s probably
my Achilles Heel. But you have to have passion for your work.
Is
it harder to draft a complex original screenplay like this and The Insider
than it is say, an adaptation, like The Horse Whisperer?
They all have a degree of difficulty and throw up problems that you’re
not expecting. The Horse Whisperer is kind of interesting because there
was a big battle between Robert Redford and me. I wanted him to play
his age, but he didn’t really want to. So that sense of him getting
older becomes a whole psychodrama and subplot that’s going on
and I thought thematically that was interesting. This was way more complex,
but something like that has its own problems in that should you have
them make love at the end, and those kind of things. It’s also
a best-seller, and people have their own notion of what the characters
should be and should look like, so it’s almost better sometimes
if no one liked the book.
The
Good Shepherd
Interviews
Robert De Niro
Milt Bearden
Matt Damon
Angelina Jolie
John Turturro
